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A P250 Fix
Aenimated1 Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, October 19, 2010 1:22:50 AM(UTC)
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I find the P250 to be a fantastic weapon. It’s accurate, reliable, and very attractively priced as of late. I picked one up out of sheer curiosity this year and have been enamored with its design ever since. It’s a very simple weapon which may lend itself to fewer inherent problems over the life of the average pistol. With the exception of springs and pins the FCU contains only 4 moving parts. Unlike the Sigpro, spare parts are readily available and the FCU is quite easy to disassemble. There are, IMHO, a couple of oversights in the design that I think Sig would have done differently if given the chance.

First, there is an inordinate amount of pre-travel, or slack, at the beginning of the DAO trigger pull. This is attributable to a design oversight that is easily repaired.

Measured from the relative center of trigger, the factory pre-travel can be as much as .10”. My “fix” reduces this measurement to roughly .020” while still retaining a tactile and discernable “click” to indicate reset. The trigger’s rest point is moved roughly .080” rearward after the process, shortening your length of pull as well by the same value.

The second biggest gripe that I noticed from users was that the stroke is too long. It measures roughly .615” from the factory. I further reduce the stroke to a total of roughly 18% (0.100) down to 0.515. This is at the expense of slightly higher trigger pull, which is then adjusted by some action polishing.

The factory P250 is roughly 6.0 – 6.5 lbs. After completion of the work, you get a smooth, shorter stroke trigger with a pull in the 6.75 – 7.0 lbs. range while retaining factory power springs.

The end result is a trigger system that “wastes no time” so to speak. The absence of pre-travel and the shorter stroke will help to make the P250 a more competitive pistol and more up to par with its P-series older brothers.

For those interested my email is in my profile. The cost of the P250 Fix is $160 plus round-trip shipping. Lifetime guaranteed.

Robert Burke
Sig Certified Armorer
Sig Specific Pistolsmith
Significant Dealer
sigarmorer@verizon.net
Aenimated1 Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, October 19, 2010 1:58:39 AM(UTC)
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http://www.p250sig.com/f...atin-crow-here-now.aspx

Sorry, new here. Didn't mean to double post.
Klaatu Offline
#3 Posted : Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:47:52 PM(UTC)
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Any chance of pictures/comparisons?

Can or Do you use the Sig shorter trigger?

Klaatu {;-}>
FNH FNP-45 Tac w/Fastfire
Sig: P250 SC 9mm; FS-SC .45: P290: ACP
Kimber Solo w CT Laser
BM AR15/Carbon-15 Carbine 5.56mm
Aenimated1 Offline
#4 Posted : Thursday, October 21, 2010 11:54:47 PM(UTC)
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I will try to get a pic of the modified FCU versus the unmodified and post this afternoon.
lockon Offline
#5 Posted : Friday, October 22, 2010 11:38:37 AM(UTC)
lockon

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I'm interested in this mod. I do feel a difference between my fist gen 250 c and the newer 250 fs FCU's. I like the newer ones crispness. I'll probably send you the older one first and swap the FCU's as the compact is my carry. I'll switch them next time I go to the range to make sure that the new FCU is reliable in the older compact. I have an AR project right now so when thats complete expect a fcu.
Aenimated1 Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, October 26, 2010 3:38:49 AM(UTC)
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I lent my modified P250 FCU out to a fellow member of this forum.

Hopefully he will have the time to give ya'll an unbiased review.

Also, pics available by email for those that request.

Robert
Klaatu Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, November 16, 2010 4:29:30 PM(UTC)
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I used Roberts (Aenimated1) modification, and while it was impressive in my P250 FS 9mm and FS 45 - it has a way to go to qualify for my 9mm SC.

Robert is currently working on perfecting what I consider an excellent trigger upgrade. I'll let him explain what he has.
Klaatu {;-}>
FNH FNP-45 Tac w/Fastfire
Sig: P250 SC 9mm; FS-SC .45: P290: ACP
Kimber Solo w CT Laser
BM AR15/Carbon-15 Carbine 5.56mm
JerBla Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, November 16, 2010 5:45:58 PM(UTC)
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Glad to see someones happy with it.
My only concern for it is how is it going to stack up in court when defence lawyer rips you apart for shooting the zombie(s) that broke into your house or attacked you on the street? You took a gun and made modifications to it that are not a factory job? I know the difference between a CCW and a race gun, If a race gun is al you have then so be it, but Im just not too sure about this for a CCW. Just my opinion.Unsure
"Its not enough to kill him till you think hes dead, kill him till He thinks hes dead"
Aenimated1 Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, November 17, 2010 1:50:04 AM(UTC)
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Klaatu is right, the new FCU worked great in the full sized frames but not so well in the Compacts.

I have learned that there are quite a few discrepancies between early and late P250s.

.020" of takeup is great for the full sized frames but won't reset on some compact frames. I have increased the takeup value to .035 and the problem has gone away.

There are also great discrepancies in the hammer and trigger bar springs. The FCU that I used for demo would crack the large pistol primers every time but had problems with the small primers. I have since learned that my FCU had very weak springs which I changed out immediately.

So now I replace all the springs on a clien'ts P250 as part of the package at no extra cost.

As far as litigation goes as long as you do not defeat the inherent safeties built in to the pistol then you are okay. If anything I am making these pistols more safe by increasing the pull weight .5 to 1 lb and increasing the operators confidence in the weapon.

Robert
oldtexan Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:20:58 AM(UTC)
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Aenimated1 wrote:
......I have learned that there are quite a few discrepancies between early and late P250s.

........Robert


Could you post a listing of the various changes? Probably deserves its own thread, preferably as a sticky. This could be very useful info for any folks switching configurations. Details on what change was made, when it was made, and preferably with serial numbers affected, would be the type of detail I'm talking about.

Or has this already been done?
Aenimated1 Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:45:06 AM(UTC)
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I am not sure if this has already been done.

All my findings are new to me as I expected the systems to be identical across the board.

So far I have seen discrepancies in trigger bar shapes, FCU dimensions, and most importantly spring weights. I suspect that this is a product of Sig probably using quite a few different vendors on their FCU parts.

My Sig rep the other day fessed up to there being a newer more improved (read: stronger) trigger bar spring that Sig has replaced the old spring with in NIB P250s and parts orders. Also, another forum member has shown that there is a new improved trigger bar that addresses part of the light strike problem. The other culprit in light strikes is most likely the hammer springs whose closure force has varied wildly in my tests.

I have resorted to replacing the hammer springs and trigger bar springs in ALL of the P250s that come across my workbench. I suggest owners of older P250s consider doing the same. The specific problem seems to be that as the weapon gets dirty the return force of the trigger is compromised by the older trigger bar springs. This would explain the slow or failures to reset.

I will start a new post when I feel I have definitive information.

Also, if others have any info they feel will be helpful to the populous please post.

Robert

toshu Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, November 18, 2010 8:57:14 AM(UTC)
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Aenimated1 wrote:

I have resorted to replacing the hammer springs and trigger bar springs in ALL of the P250s that come across my workbench. I suggest owners of older P250s consider doing the same. The specific problem seems to be that as the weapon gets dirty the return force of the trigger is compromised by the older trigger bar springs. This would explain the slow or failures to reset.

Robert


Robert, is the exchange of the hammer and trigger bar springs something that is relatively easy to do?? If so, what parts to we need to get from Sig and how is it done???

I have an older model I picked up, and being unemployed for 18 months does not give me much room for sending out the gun or buying a new one.

Thanks
GrumpyBiker Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:18:26 AM(UTC)
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I'm gonna keep looking in on this thread. Can't say I'm interested in making the trigger heavier but the fact that folks are tinkering with this weapons internals is interesting to me.
" He's a Mean Motor Scooter & A Bad Go Getter..."



U.S.M.C.
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Aenimated1 Offline
#14 Posted : Friday, November 19, 2010 1:03:26 PM(UTC)
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toshu wrote:
Aenimated1 wrote:

I have resorted to replacing the hammer springs and trigger bar springs in ALL of the P250s that come across my workbench. I suggest owners of older P250s consider doing the same. The specific problem seems to be that as the weapon gets dirty the return force of the trigger is compromised by the older trigger bar springs. This would explain the slow or failures to reset.

Robert


Robert, is the exchange of the hammer and trigger bar springs something that is relatively easy to do?? If so, what parts to we need to get from Sig and how is it done???

I have an older model I picked up, and being unemployed for 18 months does not give me much room for sending out the gun or buying a new one.

Thanks


The parts are cheap and can be had at OMB Express or from Sig. Just remember that the "hammer spring" is actually two springs.

Trading the trigger bar spring out is quite easy. The hammer spring is a whole 'nother animal though and is pretty hard without the proper tools. I use a very small punch (smaller than the diameter of the pinhole) as a guide to push the pin out while retaining the springs. Then I pull the punch out while making sure the springs don't shoot across the room. Once the old springs are out I insert the new ones. Then, using a small flat needle file as a prod, I push down on the springs compressing them into the hammer while I replace the punch thru the two pinholes and retaining the new springs. Then it is a matter of inserting the new pin while slowly removing the punch.

I am collecting a sample of hammer and trigger bar springs as well as other differences in the P250s that I see and will post results and pics when I get enough info.

Just today I had a client's Feb 2008 Manufacture P250 .40 Compact in my shop and I felt that the springs were light. Sure enough replacing the hammer spring raised the pull weight by 1 pound. Replacing the trigger bar spring aided in solid resetting, increased the volume of the reset click, and added about 8 ounces to the trigger pull.

Robert
Jaxx Offline
#15 Posted : Tuesday, December 07, 2010 6:11:39 PM(UTC)
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Just got my 250 back from Robert today and wanted to try and post a review that might help someone decide if they want to do this modification or not. I hope it is helpful.

First me: Important just so you know where it is coming from. I am in no way a pro. I have never had any training other than standing alone in the woods or at the range practicing. I have shot all my life (50ish yrs) and I can hit what I shoot at. I was in class the first weekend they were available in Tx. for CCL and I have carried a Beretta 92 ever since then. I practiced with the DA on that gun till I could hit with it and I can't see how any system could be faster than the SA after that first pull. In the last few years the 92 just got too big, and I was thinking about leaving it in the car. I found the 250 compact and fell in love. Compared to the 92 it is like carrying a derringer yet it still fits my hand and has plenty of ammo. To me the factory trigger pull felt like one of the smoothest DA triggers I had ever felt. A guy that works at DFW gun range backed me up on that the first time I ever took it to the range. Not saying it is the best just how it felt to me. Coming from my DA/SA though, the long sloppy reset was giving me fits, so I was very interested to find this thread.

Now Robert: What a nice guy. We live near enough that when I asked him about this job he offered to let me come by and compare my gun to one he had already done. He answered any and all questions, and let me play as long as I wanted. His shop was clean and organized and he ran it very professionally. I did decide to leave the gun with him and had told him that I had contacted Sig and tried to get a set of siglite night sites for the gun. Sig refused to sell me those and said that the only way I could get them, would be to send the slide in to them. While I was at Roberts, he called Sig and was told the same thing. He then very nicely explained to the Sig rep how disappointed he was that Sig would not support one of their certified armorers. After a short conversation he actually convinced the guy to send him the sights which he installed for me perfectly. Not only did he guarantee his work but it is transferable so nice piece of mind. He had the gun for 17 days, but he was at the mercy of Sig shipping and that was right over the Thanksgiving holidays so honestly only about 9 working days. He responded to any email I sent him within hours and again was really nice. I can honestly say that from this day forward if I have any issues with any of my guns Robert will be my guy.

Now the gun: The trigger sets visibly farther back than the standard. It now has NO take up or slack. When the trigger moves the hammer moves. Dry firing it at Roberts it was noticeably heavier. This bothered me a little, but still no stacking. I thought the factory trigger was light, and even now it was better than any other DA I had ever felt. The other thing I noticed was the reset was much crisper. The factory trigger felt very mushy on the reset. It felt very slow and indistinct. I almost felt like my finger could outrun the trigger on reset and I would search for that spot. Now the trigger seemed more like it pushed my finger back and the reset was very distinct. I drove straight to the range and fired 100 rounds. I shot the standard CCL distances of 3, 7, and 15 yards. My first three shots were in the same hole 1/8th “ left of the bull. With live fire I did not notice the trigger feeling heavier at all. Honestly I felt like I kept the sight picture more securely and the hammer drop was a surprise more so than before. The thing I did notice is I am faster between shots. The reset is just shorter, crisper, and feels better. I could not be happier with the job or the mod.

Summary: If you don’t like DAO guns then I don’t think this modification is so radical that it will make you change your mind. If you hate the gun now it is not such a huge change that you will love it after. It does not make it single action short or even just short. The action is like a really nice revolver action. If you are ok with that then the mod makes it really ok. If this is not a gun you plan on keeping or using then no I don’t think I would spend the money, but if this is your carry gun then I would seriously consider this. After this modification I think I will be carrying this gun for a very long time. I also think that it will actually help you in a court case. Not only are you carrying a very safe DAO but you paid to make the trigger a little heavier. (And I do mean a little)
Benjmen Offline
#16 Posted : Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:34:48 AM(UTC)
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Nice review....Thanks
lafayettela Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:12:13 PM(UTC)
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Yes, thanks for the review.
simonsez Offline
#18 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:26:30 PM(UTC)
simonsez

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Can he do anything for my p250 thats about a 10 or 11 lb trigger pull? Its rediculous how heavy it is. I get tired before the mag is empty. I have a S&W Sigma with an 11 lb trigger pull and my P250 is a comparable weight. The p250 was made in Sept. 2008
Klaatu Offline
#19 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:31:52 PM(UTC)
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Sounds to me like you have a problem, that's not normal IMHO.



Klaatu {;-}>
FNH FNP-45 Tac w/Fastfire
Sig: P250 SC 9mm; FS-SC .45: P290: ACP
Kimber Solo w CT Laser
BM AR15/Carbon-15 Carbine 5.56mm
Aenimated1 Offline
#20 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:43:33 PM(UTC)
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simon,
That is weird. I have never had a P250 in my shop that tested over 7.5 lbs. As I think about it I cannot think of a cause that could create that effect other than a higher-than-factory spec mainspring set.

I have seen some variances in spring power from P250 to P250. However most of the specimens i see from your time frame have a lighter than average trigger pull rather than heavier than average like yours.

If you have access to a trigger pull gauge it sure would be interesting to see if it agrees with your estimations.

Have you spoke to Sig? It is considerably higher than the factory spec trigger pull weight so I think it would be a matter that they would want to resolve.

Robert
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