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Accuracy
mbtyler Offline
#1 Posted : Friday, January 08, 2010 6:52:11 AM(UTC)
mbtyler

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Joined: 11/20/2009(UTC)
Posts: 7

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I was wondering if anyone else out there is having accuracy issues with their 40S&W? I am used to a combat hold for sight alignment:

Combat Hold:


Rather than a Target Hold:


I use the combat hold when shooting my wife’s S&W M&P 9mm compact and my friends Glock 22 and I feel that my accuracy is more than satisfactory. All of that to say, I feel confident that I know how to shoot a pistol and get combat accurate hits. It is for this reason that I was so surprised when I took my P250 out, and when using a combat hold, was consistently hitting low. Confused 6 or more inches low! Now I know there are numerous factors that should be taken into consideration. The most notable being the DAO trigger. There is no doubt that I need more trigger time and it is for this reason that I have been dry firing with snap caps. Even dry trigger time is better than no trigger time IMHO. BigGrin

I was not hitting low and left. I was not hitting left or right. I was just hitting low by several inches. For example, I had to completely cover the “X” on a silhouette in order to get close to where I wanted. Am I anticipating recoil? I do not think so. I want to put the gun on a rest and shoot it. That would, I hope, definitively tell me if it is me or the gun.

Has anyone else experienced low hits with their 40S&W? It seems like I have read something related to this on the SIGForum. Any advice is appreciated!
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"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -Patrick Henry
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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ("Come and take them!" was the response to the Persian army's demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae) - It'll be my response as well.
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1911su16b870 Offline
#2 Posted : Friday, January 08, 2010 7:22:27 AM(UTC)
1911su16b870

Rank: Uber Member

Joined: 8/18/2009(UTC)
Posts: 146

Thanks for sharing your P250 exerience. I have not had any problems with my 4 P250 slides and the resulting accuracy, all are dialed in "combat hold".

First make sure that indeed your front sight is not moving when the shot breaks. Set up your sight alignment on the target and take all you effort to look at that front sight the whole trigger squeeze until the shot breaks. If you can see the front sight when the shot breaks, you will know where round should impact. Now look at the target and see what is up.

Shooting from a seated, resting position can help out. More trigger time can also help out.

Second, allow another shooter to try it out and see if they experience a similar phenomena.

Here's a net version of the shooter's wheel, just in case:



Lastly, when you have determined the sights are indeed off, contact a sig armorer and get the appropriate height changes from Sig.
mbtyler Offline
#3 Posted : Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:26:57 AM(UTC)
mbtyler

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Joined: 11/20/2009(UTC)
Posts: 7

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Well, I sent my compact 40S&W off to Exeter, NH. :( My trusty P250 is my daily carry gun and I feel utterly naked without it. I sent my gun back to Sig because it has always shot low (from round 1 until now 1000+). I always suspected the gun, but I was more than willing to accept blame given that it has a DAO trigger and I knew I would need time to get used to it, but come on! Surely I would be used to it by now! That’s over 1000 live rounds of different flavors. That does not even include all of my dry firing.

So, I called Sig to tell them about my problem. The agent was very courteous and polite and assured me that I should not be having any accuracy problems (duh). As a caution he told me that they receive guns every day that are sent back to Sig because of accuracy issues and a lab guy takes the gun back to the range and utterly destroys the center of the target. The problem is, in most cases, the owner of the gun. Therefore, Sig now has a policy that if they receive a gun that does not actually have a problem, they charge the customer the shipping cost, plus a box of ammunition, plus an hour of their time (~$100.00). So I told him before I sent the gun in I would take myself out of the equation as best as I could by shooting from a bench rest. I asked him what distance I should shoot at and he told me 15 yards.

So, I went to my back yard range (I live on 35 acres) measured off exactly 15 yards, set up the table, the rest, and went to work. I shot 3 – 13 round magazines and 1 – 11 round magazine at a target used for sighting in rifles (50 rounds total). I shot at a target in each of the four corners and on average, at 15 yards from a rest, I was 4 inches low. I shot Federal 180 grain, FMJ. I took the box top and stapled it to the target and folded the target up. One other note worthy thing – the first agent told me to make sure I was shooting combat style, point-of-aim = point-of-impact (e.g. front sight post dot is where the bullet should be hitting. I called Sig back and told the agent my results and they emailed me a shipping label. I boxed up my gun and one clip, the target and shipped it off. It was received by Sig on June 1st. At this point I do not know the results. Will I be paying Sig a hundred bucks or is the problem really with my gun? I will let you all know as soon as I hear something.
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"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -Patrick Henry
-
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ("Come and take them!" was the response to the Persian army's demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae) - It'll be my response as well.
-
lockon Offline
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:50:23 AM(UTC)
lockon

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I'll occassionally get the same shot you do mb. It seems like once in a while the first shot from my compact ends up as a gut shot, I dont look at the target but continue to shoot until the mag is empty. My brother typically watches me and gives me the info. The rest of the shots are on target. I'll occassionally get that flyer-typically 3-6 inches low. I know its me because it seems that once I am used to the snap and recoil I'm back on target. On combats sights-all my handgund have them, the P250c, P250fs and the M&Pfs. So its great that I dont have to switch my point of aim between guns. Sig CS seems to be really good lately-I'd be surprised if they charge you. If anything they'll get you a different rear sight.
94krawler Offline
#5 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 5:25:11 PM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/3/2010(UTC)
Posts: 21

mbtyler wrote:
Well, I sent my compact 40S&W off to Exeter, NH. :( My trusty P250 is my daily carry gun and I feel utterly naked without it. I sent my gun back to Sig because it has always shot low (from round 1 until now 1000+). I always suspected the gun, but I was more than willing to accept blame given that it has a DAO trigger and I knew I would need time to get used to it, but come on! Surely I would be used to it by now! That’s over 1000 live rounds of different flavors. That does not even include all of my dry firing.

So, I called Sig to tell them about my problem. The agent was very courteous and polite and assured me that I should not be having any accuracy problems (duh). As a caution he told me that they receive guns every day that are sent back to Sig because of accuracy issues and a lab guy takes the gun back to the range and utterly destroys the center of the target. The problem is, in most cases, the owner of the gun. Therefore, Sig now has a policy that if they receive a gun that does not actually have a problem, they charge the customer the shipping cost, plus a box of ammunition, plus an hour of their time (~$100.00). So I told him before I sent the gun in I would take myself out of the equation as best as I could by shooting from a bench rest. I asked him what distance I should shoot at and he told me 15 yards.

So, I went to my back yard range (I live on 35 acres) measured off exactly 15 yards, set up the table, the rest, and went to work. I shot 3 – 13 round magazines and 1 – 11 round magazine at a target used for sighting in rifles (50 rounds total). I shot at a target in each of the four corners and on average, at 15 yards from a rest, I was 4 inches low. I shot Federal 180 grain, FMJ. I took the box top and stapled it to the target and folded the target up. One other note worthy thing – the first agent told me to make sure I was shooting combat style, point-of-aim = point-of-impact (e.g. front sight post dot is where the bullet should be hitting. I called Sig back and told the agent my results and they emailed me a shipping label. I boxed up my gun and one clip, the target and shipped it off. It was received by Sig on June 1st. At this point I do not know the results. Will I be paying Sig a hundred bucks or is the problem really with my gun? I will let you all know as soon as I hear something.


So was it the gun?
mbtyler Offline
#6 Posted : Friday, October 15, 2010 8:08:23 AM(UTC)
mbtyler

Rank: Newbie

Joined: 11/20/2009(UTC)
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Sorry for the delayed response. I posted this response on another forum and forgot to update it here. I got my Compact .40 S&W back from Sig on June 24th 2010, which also happens to be my birthday (I was happy). Remember in my previous post that I sent it in because it was shooting low. It was received by Sig on June 1st. I fully expected that I would receive my P250 with a new rear site or some other tweak, but instead, I am humbled. What I got was two targets from a gunsmith named Jay. The first string of fire was a bit low and the second was spot on. It does not state anywhere what distance he fired at or what ammunition was used. The gunsmith comments simply states "Pistol shoots POA/POI". Therefore, it is logical to assume that I do not know how to shoot my gun. I am feeling sorry for myself. I was soooooo certain that it was the gun. Well, here are my observations: 1) Jay does this for a living so I would expect that he could shoot my gun better than I can 2) It is obvious that I need more range time in order to work out my bugs 3) If I find that I continue to shoot low even after working at it for a while, then I will order a new rear site for my gun 4) It is my gun, not Jay's and I have to be the one to shoot it well, so if that means changing the rear site, then so be it. I will move on with my life. The next question is whether or not I will be charged the obligatory $100 for sending my gun off to Sig and them finding nothing wrong with it (btw - I was not charged). I am going to go put some rounds down range and let out my frustrations!

Well, apparently frustration pays off! Here is my story in picture form!









Needless to say, I'm happy now (and I'll shut up) BigGrin
-
"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -Patrick Henry
-
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ("Come and take them!" was the response to the Persian army's demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae) - It'll be my response as well.
-
1 user thanked mbtyler for this useful post.
R6600DH on 8/30/2011(UTC)
LFransson Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, October 15, 2010 10:19:44 AM(UTC)
LFransson

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/6/2010(UTC)
Posts: 38

The P250 does seem to be a tough gun to learn to shoot well. I was certain my sights were off when I first got mine. I consistently shot great groups, just a few inches low and left. Over the course of about 800 rounds, my groups moved to the right, and then up to where they should be. I'm currently shooting 9mm, but after renting a .40 cal P229 (which led to buying a 9mm P229) I have a curiosity about .40 cal that has driven me to track down a .40 cal kit for my P250. Looking forward to shooting it soon!
94krawler Offline
#8 Posted : Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:39:18 AM(UTC)
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/3/2010(UTC)
Posts: 21

I thought mine shot low at first as well but I was used to shooting a G23 or a G27 both with shorter and lighter triggers. As I got used to it I became more accurate with it.
TigerKatana Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27:54 AM(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 5/2/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: New Orleans, LA.

Most of my guns were taken by Ms. Katrina a few years back so I am just getting back into shooting. It pains me to think what I lost but my first new gun was the 250 and I love it. I can tell you however that after over 5 years away from the range it was like riding a bike but you are right about the low feeling. For me I seemed more on target with a one handed grip. But rangetime will tell the tale. My wife shot dead on but did not like the kick. I am going to keep at it and see how it works out but I have a feeling that the grain and grip make a big difference with this gun. Good luck.
male2205 Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:27:00 AM(UTC)
male2205

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I'm used to the combat hold sight alignment and haven't had issues with my shooting. I own a FS .40 and shoot it regularly and its been accurate from outta the box....It's probably this gun in particular but range alignment wouldn't work good on mine.

Hope this helps!
Sig Sauer P250 C 9mm FDE T/B
EAA Tanfoglio Witness Classic .40 L

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but world War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Albert Einstein
EPD1102 Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, May 18, 2011 6:52:56 AM(UTC)
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The biggest problem that I've seen with people not shooting well with the P250 seems to come from people trying to "stage" the trigger by pulling it very slowly until it "breaks". Since the trigger is like a nice old custom revolver, I think the P250 should be shot the same way. The trigger should be one smooth pull all the way through until the gun fires. The more you practice, the faster you will get but remember to start off nice and smooth. Speed and accuracy will both be the pay-offs from your practice.
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