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Shooting Grip/Technique w/P320C w/Short Fingers & Large Palm?
Tomac Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, December 27, 2014 4:44:23 PM(UTC)
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(Mods feel free to move this thread to another forum if you feel it would be better suited there).
For decades I've never been very good w/handguns. I've struggled w/different types of actions, sizes, calibers, techniques, etc with only modest improvement to show for it, while in the back of my mind I've always wondered why I've never been able to reach a pistol's mag release w/my thumb w/o altering my grip or copy the thumbs-forward technique well (for example).
Today in a combo "Eureka!" & "Duh! Why didn't I think of this sooner!" moment, my petite wife pointed out that my fingers are about as long as hers but w/a much larger palm.
So, can anyone provide suggestions on how to improve my defensive shooting grip/ability w/the physical makeup of my hands? I've recently purchased a couple of 9mm P320C's which I love and intend to contact SIG about picking up the P250 Compact 9mm/.357/.40 "Small" grip module to see if that helps.
TIA!...
Tomac
"His Universe, His rules." - Tomac
cstone Offline
#2 Posted : Saturday, December 27, 2014 5:11:02 PM(UTC)
cstone

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Are you clapping your hands on the grip, with about equal palm contact on both sides of the grip, with both thumbs parallel and pointed forward?

With an unloaded pistol, work on gripping the pistol in a way that allows you to put the middle of the pad of your strong hand index figure on the trigger. You may not get the backstrap into the web of your thumb, but you will get part of your thumb around the backstrap. The counter pressure of your support hand should give you ample support to hold and steady the pistol.

Once you find the grip, you will need thousands of repetitions practicing the feel and developing the muscle memory to your grip and draw.

Are there any reputable pistol instructors in your area? IMO, having a few different instructors assist and observe you will be worth much more than what you pay for the instruction.

Be safe.
adepto super vestri ego
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Tomac on 12/27/2014(UTC)
Tomac Offline
#3 Posted : Saturday, December 27, 2014 5:44:11 PM(UTC)
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cstone;39473 wrote:
Are you clapping your hands on the grip, with about equal palm contact on both sides of the grip, with both thumbs parallel and pointed forward?

With an unloaded pistol, work on gripping the pistol in a way that allows you to put the middle of the pad of your strong hand index figure on the trigger. You may not get the backstrap into the web of your thumb, but you will get part of your thumb around the backstrap. The counter pressure of your support hand should give you ample support to hold and steady the pistol.

Once you find the grip, you will need thousands of repetitions practicing the feel and developing the muscle memory to your grip and draw.

Are there any reputable pistol instructors in your area? IMO, having a few different instructors assist and observe you will be worth much more than what you pay for the instruction.

Be safe.


Let's see if I can be more specific as to my grip difficulties:
If I grasp the pistol so it fits the web of my hand properly, I can reach the trigger properly as well but the knuckles of my other fingers are at about 1:30 which is back just far enough to prevent me from curling my fingertips enough for a really secure grip. It feels like I could improve my grip if the grip itself was a little smaller.
With my support hand, I simply can't seem to get my palm to make any significant physical contact w/the side of the grip. This way I feel like my grip pressure is almost entirely on the front & back of the grip (could this mean that in reality I need a larger grip?).
Now, if I change my grip so the pistol's rotated a little counter-clockwise, it's not fitting the web of my hand as well but my fingers have a better grasp w/more pressure on the grip from the palm of my hand. There's also more available space on the left side of the grip for my support hand palm, but only the bottom of the support palm seems to make any significant contact w/the grip.
Does that make any sense?

I appreciate the training suggestion and it is something I've been trying to do. Unfortunately, in this part of Idaho the only place offering classes went under before I could attend their handgun classes (however, I did manage to take their carbine classes before that happened).
Tomac
"His Universe, His rules." - Tomac
cstone Offline
#4 Posted : Saturday, December 27, 2014 8:47:18 PM(UTC)
cstone

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It took me a bit to find the article, but this one is pretty good because they have some decent photographs.

http://www.policemag.com...-your-handgun-grip.aspx

Are there any IPSC or IDPA events at ranges near you? Go to one. Shoot the match, but also watch others and ask questions. IDPA tends to be a bit less gear/rule centric, so you will most likely be able to shoot with what you normally carry. There will be people at any match who are either dealing with similar issues, or have already resolved similar issues. Sometimes just having another set of eyes watching you while you shoot will give you insight into how to make improvements.
adepto super vestri ego
Tomac Offline
#5 Posted : Saturday, December 27, 2014 8:57:18 PM(UTC)
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I'm going to take all these suggestions plus do some additional online research then hit the range tomorrow for some experimentation to see if I can find something that works for me. I'll post my results when I get back from the range tomorrow morning. Thanks for all the input!
Tomac
"His Universe, His rules." - Tomac
Tomac Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, December 28, 2014 11:49:15 AM(UTC)
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Okay, burned up a lot of bandwidth last night going over proper grip techniques, grip pressure, stance, etc. Did a lot of grip experimentation w/an unloaded P320c.
Hit the range this morning (30F) and set up a simple bullseye target at 7yds for a reference point w/regard to muzzle rise. Fired 60rds while trying to remember everything I'd read the night before. Managed a good amount of improvement in muzzle control by modifying the recommended thumbs-forward grip to account for my short fingers. Support palm presses against the fingers of the strong-side hand instead of directly contacting the left side of the grip.
I still have some tweaking to do w/regard to grip, stance, grip pressure, etc, but this is a major improvement for me.
Thanks to everyone for their suggestions & input!
Tomac
"His Universe, His rules." - Tomac
ChristopherLoaf Offline
#7 Posted : Thursday, January 01, 2015 6:25:17 PM(UTC)
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I'm sure you may have already seen this but I think this does the best job explaining the grip. Especially when you're still talking fundamentals. I don't think Travis is the best but I am a fan boy and while watch all the other grip videos, he provides reasoning for why.

http://youtu.be/tMzQIHN-LiI

It's an older video and some of the others address what to do if you can't reach the mag release. Sounds like you're doing a fine job. Never stop learning!

Remember,


Head up. Gun up. Never give up.
Chris

I don't own any guns anymore

Currently accepting donations for one!
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Tomac on 1/1/2015(UTC)
Tomac Offline
#8 Posted : Thursday, January 01, 2015 6:49:14 PM(UTC)
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ChristopherLoaf;39497 wrote:
I'm sure you may have already seen this but I think this does the best job explaining the grip. Especially when you're still talking fundamentals. I don't think Travis is the best but I am a fan boy and while watch all the other grip videos, he provides reasoning for why.
http://youtu.be/tMzQIHN-LiI
It's an older video and some of the others address what to do if you can't reach the mag release. Sounds like you're doing a fine job. Never stop learning!
Remember,
Head up. Gun up. Never give up.


Thx for the video, in a way it illustrates part of my problem. If I move my support hand forward enough to securely wrap around the fingers of my dominant hand, my support palm doesn't make contact w/the left side of the grip.
If I move my support hand back enough for my support palm to contact the left side of the grip, my support fingers can't securely wrap around the fingers of my dominant hand.

FWIW, today I hit the range for some back-to-basics experimentation after viewing a Jerry Miculek video on pistol shooting. It appears that the best grip for me for now (until my P320C "small" grip modules arrive from SIG) is the afore-mentioned palm-makes-contact-but-fingers-don't-wrap-like-I-want grip. This affords the best accuracy & recoil-control of everything I've tried so far, but I intend to hit the range again tomorrow for more practice & experimentation.
Regarding the mag release, unless the smaller grip module allows my thumb to reach the mag release w/o shifting my grip, I'll just have to live with it. Thx again!...
Tomac
"His Universe, His rules." - Tomac
Tomac Offline
#9 Posted : Saturday, October 15, 2016 10:59:50 AM(UTC)
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What ended up being best for me w/the P320 was hooking more finger around the trigger, almost to the first joint. Still a little low/left but not as bad.
The fix, however, turned out to be going back to the P250; my groups are much tighter and more centered than w/the P320. So, P320's have gone up for sale and I'm back to carrying/shooting the P250.
Tomac
"His Universe, His rules." - Tomac
SCSurfer Offline
#10 Posted : Saturday, October 15, 2016 12:06:42 PM(UTC)
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Tomac;42204 wrote:
What ended up being best for me w/the P320 was hooking more finger around the trigger, almost to the first joint. Still a little low/left but not as bad.
The fix, however, turned out to be going back to the P250; my groups are much tighter and more centered than w/the P320. So, P320's have gone up for sale and I'm back to carrying/shooting the P250.
Tomac



I routinely go back and forth between shooting my 320 and 250 and I definitely shoot better groups with the 250.
Jim

P250SC .40S&W
P320C 9mm/.40S&W
Ruger P89 9MM
Windham VEX .223
Mossberg 500 Thunder Ranch 12g
XavierNu Offline
#11 Posted : Saturday, October 15, 2016 8:28:46 PM(UTC)
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I tend to shoot tighter groups with my P320 but my first shot doesn't go where I want it like the P250. I usually start all of my range sessions with a 3-yard "1 in the hole" drill with a shoot'n see dot. My P250 I can put 4/5 on the dot normally knocking it off the target. The P320 normally starts with shot just wide and then the next 4 centered around that.
P250C .40 S&W
P250SC 9MM
P250C/SC .380 ACP
P228 III S/N :p
P239 SAS .40 S&W
P320SC 9mm

MikeJackmin Offline
#12 Posted : Sunday, October 16, 2016 12:12:34 PM(UTC)
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I have fairly average hands, a bit on the large side, but I've managed to break my right wrist and my left thumb years ago and they no longer work quite the way that normal hands work.

There are some pistols I'm entirely unable to grip well - including glocks, and most of those cool East-block guns that are particularly flat, like the Tokarev or the CZ52. I can't grip a square-butted S&W revolver either, but the round-butted grips work just fine.

But even with the guns that fit me well, I've never managed a proper hold as described here, with meaningful left-handed palm contact contributing to control of the gun.

My approach is to get a good one-handed hold - pistol against the web of the thumb, in line with the forearm, and a nice secure grip that does not allow the pistol to wiggle when the grip is tightened - and I just use my left hand to offer what half-assed support it can. Most of the work is done by the right hand, but the left helps a little, and that's that.

I'll never win a trophy but I been able to shoot well enough to suit me. My right-hand grip is repeatable and secure, and that's the most important thing.
cstone Offline
#13 Posted : Sunday, October 16, 2016 8:33:15 PM(UTC)
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The order of importance for me is two handed, dominate hand only, non-dominate hand only. No single handgun shoots best in all three categories. For dominate hand only I like a full sized 1911 or any of my revolvers. Non-dominate hand only I'm pretty good with a snubby revolver or a Glock compact. Two handed I like my P229 or a full size Glock and even a full size P250.

Long ago, dominate hand grip in the holster was everything for me. Getting the right grip before breaking the snap keeper was where I could tell how well I would shoot a string. If I slid or bobbled my grip at the draw, I knew before the first shot broke that either my rounds would be off or my timing would be choppy. I gripped and drew for hours just to get the muscle memory and correct feel. Smooth is fast, I would tell myself over and over. Half stepping till I was sure I was ready for full speed.

This is all well and good on a range or even when playing at a match. As I get older, I have begun working on making certain that I have my gun out before I need it or getting to cover before I touch it. Having it out before I need it gives me the time to regrip if needed or even switch hands if I am on a left side barricade. Drawing behind cover is obviously better than trying to move while sweeping cover garments and thinking about gripping and drawing.

Even when I was younger I wasn't faster than bullets. If someone is already shooting in your direction, being a fast draw isn't really that important.

The grip that works best for you to be consistently accurate with the handguns you carry is about all you can hope for. Perfect just isn't in the cards for most of us.

Be safe.
adepto super vestri ego
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XavierNu on 10/17/2016(UTC)
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